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	<title>Comments on: Why the church can&#8217;t win the coffee war.</title>
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	<description>Philippians 3:7-11</description>
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		<title>By: A Great Comment That Deserves Its Own Post &#171; Insipid Garbage</title>
		<link>http://insipidgarbage.wordpress.com/2007/03/12/why-the-church-cant-win-the-coffee-war/#comment-2015</link>
		<dc:creator>A Great Comment That Deserves Its Own Post &#171; Insipid Garbage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2007 18:01:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://insipidgarbage.wordpress.com/2007/03/12/why-the-church-cant-win-the-coffee-war/#comment-2015</guid>
		<description>[...] 27th, 2007 by sprocket23    Ben Maulis left a great quote on my post &#8220;Why The Church Can&#8217;t Win the Coffee Wars&#8221; from March 12th. It explains why outreach just for outreach&#8217;s sake comes short of being [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 27th, 2007 by sprocket23    Ben Maulis left a great quote on my post &#8220;Why The Church Can&#8217;t Win the Coffee Wars&#8221; from March 12th. It explains why outreach just for outreach&#8217;s sake comes short of being [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Maulis</title>
		<link>http://insipidgarbage.wordpress.com/2007/03/12/why-the-church-cant-win-the-coffee-war/#comment-1985</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Maulis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 23:55:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://insipidgarbage.wordpress.com/2007/03/12/why-the-church-cant-win-the-coffee-war/#comment-1985</guid>
		<description>The church should provide hospitality, but I don&#039;t see any instruction or precedent for &quot;pre-evangelism&quot; in the scriptures.  By pre-evangelism, I mean any effort, activity or program intended to court unbelievers while witholding propositional truth.  A good number of churches and ministries do just this.

Churches have &quot;outreach&quot; events and programs that are designed to promote the church and invite people without calling them to repent and believe the gospel.  Pressed for an explanation of why their event or program is essentially void of the gospel message, they claim that it is &quot;pre-evangelical.&quot;  Supposedly, the people will come to know the truth after they&#039;ve become comfortable in church.

Churches do picnics, bar-b-ques, concerts for the community, and all kinds of programs to entertain the youth, but too often come short of calling for repentance.

The doctrine of Christ to which we are adjured to abide in requires repentance.  There is no salvation without repentance.  Jesus said he came not for the righteous but to call sinners to repentance and, &quot;unless you repent, you will likewise perish.&quot;  He never had communion with sinners that were not in repentance (except for Judas, Matt. 21:28-32).  He preached, repent, repent and repent (Matt. 3:2, 4:17, Mark 1:15).   He commanded us to preach and his disciples went out and preached that men should repent (Mark 6:12), repent and be baptized (Acts 2:38), repent and be converted (Acts 3:19), commanding all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), and that they should repent and turn to God (Acts 26:20).

So then churches, whether they have a do or not, ought to tell the truth and withold nothing of the gospel for discretion&#039;s sake.  It will only result in the impression that they are lukewarm and lacking firm conviction.  Likewise, individuals who are often depended upon when the rest of the church is busy trying to get a better venue for its next gig, need to tell it like it is and call people to repent and trust Christ besides inviting people to church and offering to pray for them.  If you want to buy them a coffee and a biscuit, it&#039;s ok too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The church should provide hospitality, but I don&#8217;t see any instruction or precedent for &#8220;pre-evangelism&#8221; in the scriptures.  By pre-evangelism, I mean any effort, activity or program intended to court unbelievers while witholding propositional truth.  A good number of churches and ministries do just this.</p>
<p>Churches have &#8220;outreach&#8221; events and programs that are designed to promote the church and invite people without calling them to repent and believe the gospel.  Pressed for an explanation of why their event or program is essentially void of the gospel message, they claim that it is &#8220;pre-evangelical.&#8221;  Supposedly, the people will come to know the truth after they&#8217;ve become comfortable in church.</p>
<p>Churches do picnics, bar-b-ques, concerts for the community, and all kinds of programs to entertain the youth, but too often come short of calling for repentance.</p>
<p>The doctrine of Christ to which we are adjured to abide in requires repentance.  There is no salvation without repentance.  Jesus said he came not for the righteous but to call sinners to repentance and, &#8220;unless you repent, you will likewise perish.&#8221;  He never had communion with sinners that were not in repentance (except for Judas, Matt. 21:28-32).  He preached, repent, repent and repent (Matt. 3:2, 4:17, Mark 1:15).   He commanded us to preach and his disciples went out and preached that men should repent (Mark 6:12), repent and be baptized (Acts 2:38), repent and be converted (Acts 3:19), commanding all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), and that they should repent and turn to God (Acts 26:20).</p>
<p>So then churches, whether they have a do or not, ought to tell the truth and withold nothing of the gospel for discretion&#8217;s sake.  It will only result in the impression that they are lukewarm and lacking firm conviction.  Likewise, individuals who are often depended upon when the rest of the church is busy trying to get a better venue for its next gig, need to tell it like it is and call people to repent and trust Christ besides inviting people to church and offering to pray for them.  If you want to buy them a coffee and a biscuit, it&#8217;s ok too.</p>
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		<title>By: sprocket23</title>
		<link>http://insipidgarbage.wordpress.com/2007/03/12/why-the-church-cant-win-the-coffee-war/#comment-73</link>
		<dc:creator>sprocket23</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:27:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://insipidgarbage.wordpress.com/2007/03/12/why-the-church-cant-win-the-coffee-war/#comment-73</guid>
		<description>Steve,

Thanks for the comment!  Actually, I think that the Vineyard is a good example of doing this the right way.  I have some experience with the Vineyard in Cincinnati and you&#039;re right: the church there has a lot of the really &quot;cool&quot; things inside.  A food court, a good coffee shop, bookstore, awesome worship, etc.  But, I don&#039;t get the sense that those things are there to get people in the door.  Instead, the folks there go out into the highways and byways to bring people in with servant evangelism and small groups, etc.  The cool stuff at the Cincey Vineyard is not the hook, it&#039;s just an amenity once you get there.  And you&#039;re right, too, that there is a lot of merit for &quot;relaxing the dress code&quot; and showing that worship should be an exciting thing.

My beef is not with the cool things in the church or with being culturally relevant, it&#039;s with using those things as a substitute for winning people to Jesus.

The Vineyard is a great movement, I&#039;ve been very impressed with what I&#039;ve seen there and would love to be a part of a church like that which is excited about sharing the Gospel, planting churches, and experiencing the Kingdom of God!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,</p>
<p>Thanks for the comment!  Actually, I think that the Vineyard is a good example of doing this the right way.  I have some experience with the Vineyard in Cincinnati and you&#8217;re right: the church there has a lot of the really &#8220;cool&#8221; things inside.  A food court, a good coffee shop, bookstore, awesome worship, etc.  But, I don&#8217;t get the sense that those things are there to get people in the door.  Instead, the folks there go out into the highways and byways to bring people in with servant evangelism and small groups, etc.  The cool stuff at the Cincey Vineyard is not the hook, it&#8217;s just an amenity once you get there.  And you&#8217;re right, too, that there is a lot of merit for &#8220;relaxing the dress code&#8221; and showing that worship should be an exciting thing.</p>
<p>My beef is not with the cool things in the church or with being culturally relevant, it&#8217;s with using those things as a substitute for winning people to Jesus.</p>
<p>The Vineyard is a great movement, I&#8217;ve been very impressed with what I&#8217;ve seen there and would love to be a part of a church like that which is excited about sharing the Gospel, planting churches, and experiencing the Kingdom of God!</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://insipidgarbage.wordpress.com/2007/03/12/why-the-church-cant-win-the-coffee-war/#comment-68</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:55:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://insipidgarbage.wordpress.com/2007/03/12/why-the-church-cant-win-the-coffee-war/#comment-68</guid>
		<description>I totally agree though we do offer coffee, bagels, even Cappuccino before Sunday worship.  As a Vineyard church, we&#039;ve relaxed our dress, simplified our delivery and added video, contemporized the music and worship and sought to bring the message of Jesus Christ, salvation, and meaning or purpose to life to meet today&#039;s cultural trends.  
The purpose is not to bring worldly standards into the church but rather to help the unchurched and lost find a connection with Jesus by providing a place and plenty of opportunity for interaction with the people of God.   We give an opportunity to accept Christ as their personal Savior every celebration and are experiencing the joy of the harvest!
What we do unintentionally offends some more traditional ministries but we&#039;ve found that by being culturally relevant people feel accepted and relaxed enough to hear the message more clearly and that church is actually fun!
Jesus prayed that God would not take His disciples out of the world but that He would (John 17:15) but that our Father would protect us from the evil one.  
So Christians -- do what it takes -- whatever it takes to reach your family, your friends, your neighbors ...even your enemies for Jesus.  Be creative and show them just how much you can love them -- even if it&#039;s with stale donuts and bad coffee -- share it with love and joy and God will annoint your efforts!
Do the Word.  Believe the Word. Expect miracles ... they will come.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I totally agree though we do offer coffee, bagels, even Cappuccino before Sunday worship.  As a Vineyard church, we&#8217;ve relaxed our dress, simplified our delivery and added video, contemporized the music and worship and sought to bring the message of Jesus Christ, salvation, and meaning or purpose to life to meet today&#8217;s cultural trends.<br />
The purpose is not to bring worldly standards into the church but rather to help the unchurched and lost find a connection with Jesus by providing a place and plenty of opportunity for interaction with the people of God.   We give an opportunity to accept Christ as their personal Savior every celebration and are experiencing the joy of the harvest!<br />
What we do unintentionally offends some more traditional ministries but we&#8217;ve found that by being culturally relevant people feel accepted and relaxed enough to hear the message more clearly and that church is actually fun!<br />
Jesus prayed that God would not take His disciples out of the world but that He would (John 17:15) but that our Father would protect us from the evil one.<br />
So Christians &#8212; do what it takes &#8212; whatever it takes to reach your family, your friends, your neighbors &#8230;even your enemies for Jesus.  Be creative and show them just how much you can love them &#8212; even if it&#8217;s with stale donuts and bad coffee &#8212; share it with love and joy and God will annoint your efforts!<br />
Do the Word.  Believe the Word. Expect miracles &#8230; they will come.</p>
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		<title>By: sprocket23</title>
		<link>http://insipidgarbage.wordpress.com/2007/03/12/why-the-church-cant-win-the-coffee-war/#comment-66</link>
		<dc:creator>sprocket23</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Mar 2007 03:59:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://insipidgarbage.wordpress.com/2007/03/12/why-the-church-cant-win-the-coffee-war/#comment-66</guid>
		<description>Heretic and Rusdy:

I agree with both your comments, and hold the same tension that you both do.  I have no problem with outreach events and &quot;gimmicks&quot;, I just want to make sure that Christ is the reason people are coming, not the outreach efforts.  Hey, let&#039;s face it, in the end we want to see people accept Jesus.  Yet, I think of Jesus feeding the masses: he seemed to be annoyed that many of the crowd were following him more for the bread than for the Gospel.  They will always come from bread, but will they come for the Kingdom of God when the bread runs out?

I would love to see the church go out, make disciples, and then have the world come to the church not for the &quot;bread&quot; but for the &quot;bread of life&quot;.

Thanks for your comments, glad to have you here at the dump!
-Robert</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heretic and Rusdy:</p>
<p>I agree with both your comments, and hold the same tension that you both do.  I have no problem with outreach events and &#8220;gimmicks&#8221;, I just want to make sure that Christ is the reason people are coming, not the outreach efforts.  Hey, let&#8217;s face it, in the end we want to see people accept Jesus.  Yet, I think of Jesus feeding the masses: he seemed to be annoyed that many of the crowd were following him more for the bread than for the Gospel.  They will always come from bread, but will they come for the Kingdom of God when the bread runs out?</p>
<p>I would love to see the church go out, make disciples, and then have the world come to the church not for the &#8220;bread&#8221; but for the &#8220;bread of life&#8221;.</p>
<p>Thanks for your comments, glad to have you here at the dump!<br />
-Robert</p>
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		<title>By: Rusdy</title>
		<link>http://insipidgarbage.wordpress.com/2007/03/12/why-the-church-cant-win-the-coffee-war/#comment-65</link>
		<dc:creator>Rusdy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Mar 2007 00:28:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://insipidgarbage.wordpress.com/2007/03/12/why-the-church-cant-win-the-coffee-war/#comment-65</guid>
		<description>G&#039;day Sprocket23, I think you&#039;ve said it all and nothing can be added much. It&#039;s certainly encouraging to hear (or read :P ) more and more Christians to be faithful in God&#039;s word (&amp; His words only).

Though after what all have been said, I do believe most people that &#039;commercialise&#039; the gospel by any means (including coffes, games, whatever) do genuinely have good intention. BUT, at the same time most people forget how powerful our God is! Looking the example of the first church in Acts 2:42-47, where &quot;The Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved&quot;.

Again, as your quote from Paul&#039;s letter to the Corinthians, it is THE LORD&#039;s work who saves people, NOT human. Unfortunately, we (humans) always underestimates our God (i.e. His mighty power through His Words) and unconciously think we have to do something better (somehow) with our own effort.

So, those coffees, games, and whatever other means are wrong? Hmmm... I think that depends. If we do that because we are uncomfortable (or unconvinced) that God&#039;s word alone can&#039;t do it, then yes, I think that&#039;s unbiblical (you&#039;ve quoted it already from Corinthians). Simple reason, do we think our God, that has created the universe with its awesome wonders and sent His Son to die on the cross, can NOT save people not by giving free coffees, games, etc etc?

Unfortunately, using the same argument, most Christians fall into the temptation, &quot;As long they hear the WORD, they&#039;ll be saved, so why don&#039;t we give out these freebies, so they will come to our gathering, then we attack them with the gospel! (Then we can sigh in relief we&#039;ve done our bit, next is up to God)&quot;. Well, the problem with this model, I think (personally), that we (as a church) are WASTING our resources (time, money, and people) that suppose to be used proclaiming the gospel to coffees, games, etc etc instead. Because, with this intention in the first place, we DO KNOW these people are NOT INTERESTED to God&#039;s word in the first place. They come to our gathering BECAUSE of these freebies, NOT because they want to learn God&#039;s words. We do hope, with these gatherings, someone will be interested in God&#039;s words eventually.

Of course then, why don&#039;t we invite people that ALREADY interested in God&#039;s word (i.e. our friends that we already befriended for a while and they are willing to find out more about God, but a &#039;church&#039; will be too formal), then we can invite these people to a group discussios (informal, or what ever) about God. At the same time, why not we serve them with coffees, games, or what ever that makes the group comfortable. The difference: eventhough our guest concluded they&#039;re not interested with the gospel, at least we use the church&#039;s resources to a GENUINE effort in explaining to them the gospel in a loving environment. Where the other model, we are WASTING the church&#039;s resources to people that are NOT interested in the gospel in the first place!

What about if a church (or any individual) IS genuinely throwing these freebies, and with a prayerful commitment hoping someone from the crowd (or just a person) will be saved? Well, I do believe (personally) it&#039;s nothing unbiblical with that too, as I do believe God is willing to spend so much just for a soul to be saved (He did send HIS SON to die on the cross!). 

At the end of the day, it is the attitude of our heart, that is to love the unloving, as our Lord has love us first. Let the glory be His, Amen!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>G&#8217;day Sprocket23, I think you&#8217;ve said it all and nothing can be added much. It&#8217;s certainly encouraging to hear (or read <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' />  ) more and more Christians to be faithful in God&#8217;s word (&amp; His words only).</p>
<p>Though after what all have been said, I do believe most people that &#8216;commercialise&#8217; the gospel by any means (including coffes, games, whatever) do genuinely have good intention. BUT, at the same time most people forget how powerful our God is! Looking the example of the first church in Acts 2:42-47, where &#8220;The Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved&#8221;.</p>
<p>Again, as your quote from Paul&#8217;s letter to the Corinthians, it is THE LORD&#8217;s work who saves people, NOT human. Unfortunately, we (humans) always underestimates our God (i.e. His mighty power through His Words) and unconciously think we have to do something better (somehow) with our own effort.</p>
<p>So, those coffees, games, and whatever other means are wrong? Hmmm&#8230; I think that depends. If we do that because we are uncomfortable (or unconvinced) that God&#8217;s word alone can&#8217;t do it, then yes, I think that&#8217;s unbiblical (you&#8217;ve quoted it already from Corinthians). Simple reason, do we think our God, that has created the universe with its awesome wonders and sent His Son to die on the cross, can NOT save people not by giving free coffees, games, etc etc?</p>
<p>Unfortunately, using the same argument, most Christians fall into the temptation, &#8220;As long they hear the WORD, they&#8217;ll be saved, so why don&#8217;t we give out these freebies, so they will come to our gathering, then we attack them with the gospel! (Then we can sigh in relief we&#8217;ve done our bit, next is up to God)&#8221;. Well, the problem with this model, I think (personally), that we (as a church) are WASTING our resources (time, money, and people) that suppose to be used proclaiming the gospel to coffees, games, etc etc instead. Because, with this intention in the first place, we DO KNOW these people are NOT INTERESTED to God&#8217;s word in the first place. They come to our gathering BECAUSE of these freebies, NOT because they want to learn God&#8217;s words. We do hope, with these gatherings, someone will be interested in God&#8217;s words eventually.</p>
<p>Of course then, why don&#8217;t we invite people that ALREADY interested in God&#8217;s word (i.e. our friends that we already befriended for a while and they are willing to find out more about God, but a &#8216;church&#8217; will be too formal), then we can invite these people to a group discussios (informal, or what ever) about God. At the same time, why not we serve them with coffees, games, or what ever that makes the group comfortable. The difference: eventhough our guest concluded they&#8217;re not interested with the gospel, at least we use the church&#8217;s resources to a GENUINE effort in explaining to them the gospel in a loving environment. Where the other model, we are WASTING the church&#8217;s resources to people that are NOT interested in the gospel in the first place!</p>
<p>What about if a church (or any individual) IS genuinely throwing these freebies, and with a prayerful commitment hoping someone from the crowd (or just a person) will be saved? Well, I do believe (personally) it&#8217;s nothing unbiblical with that too, as I do believe God is willing to spend so much just for a soul to be saved (He did send HIS SON to die on the cross!). </p>
<p>At the end of the day, it is the attitude of our heart, that is to love the unloving, as our Lord has love us first. Let the glory be His, Amen!</p>
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		<title>By: Heretic</title>
		<link>http://insipidgarbage.wordpress.com/2007/03/12/why-the-church-cant-win-the-coffee-war/#comment-64</link>
		<dc:creator>Heretic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2007 20:50:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://insipidgarbage.wordpress.com/2007/03/12/why-the-church-cant-win-the-coffee-war/#comment-64</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know if I&#039;m necessarily against using means to get to the end.  I think there is a line however at the means we are going to use.  We can&#039;t be so relevant that we erase the line of morality and holiness.

My contention is this:  people don&#039;t want what we&#039;re selling.  Not because God is lacking nor His salvation, but rather because He is absent from our midst.  We talk a good game, but we&#039;ve resorted to gimmicks because it&#039;s easier than taking the time and discipline to get Him.

Where is the power of God that was so evident in the body in Acts?  Where is the God who has the power to transform the life of anyone?  Remember the man from the Gaderenes?  Where is that God?  The one who has the power to take a naked crazy man who&#039;s out of his mind, and restore his mind and bring peace?  That&#039;s what people want and need.

The problem is not how we get people to church, but what we&#039;ve got to offer them once we get them there.  Well, here&#039;s some coffee.  We know you&#039;re screwed-up, but why don&#039;t you try Jesus.  He can&#039;t take away your problems here and now, but if you say this prayer - you&#039;ll at least get to heaven.

Huh?  Maybe we aren&#039;t offerring the God of the Bible to folks?  More than His word even, I&#039;m interested in His body - To gaze upon His face - to hear the words from His mouth - to feel the beating of His heart - to know, see and experience that His arm is not short that it cannot save, and His ear is not deaf that He cannot hear.

That&#039;s what I want to offer people.

Blessings! :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know if I&#8217;m necessarily against using means to get to the end.  I think there is a line however at the means we are going to use.  We can&#8217;t be so relevant that we erase the line of morality and holiness.</p>
<p>My contention is this:  people don&#8217;t want what we&#8217;re selling.  Not because God is lacking nor His salvation, but rather because He is absent from our midst.  We talk a good game, but we&#8217;ve resorted to gimmicks because it&#8217;s easier than taking the time and discipline to get Him.</p>
<p>Where is the power of God that was so evident in the body in Acts?  Where is the God who has the power to transform the life of anyone?  Remember the man from the Gaderenes?  Where is that God?  The one who has the power to take a naked crazy man who&#8217;s out of his mind, and restore his mind and bring peace?  That&#8217;s what people want and need.</p>
<p>The problem is not how we get people to church, but what we&#8217;ve got to offer them once we get them there.  Well, here&#8217;s some coffee.  We know you&#8217;re screwed-up, but why don&#8217;t you try Jesus.  He can&#8217;t take away your problems here and now, but if you say this prayer &#8211; you&#8217;ll at least get to heaven.</p>
<p>Huh?  Maybe we aren&#8217;t offerring the God of the Bible to folks?  More than His word even, I&#8217;m interested in His body &#8211; To gaze upon His face &#8211; to hear the words from His mouth &#8211; to feel the beating of His heart &#8211; to know, see and experience that His arm is not short that it cannot save, and His ear is not deaf that He cannot hear.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s what I want to offer people.</p>
<p>Blessings! <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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